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	<title>Comments on: Sigh, Cancel The Jubilation</title>
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	<link>http://cogdogblog.com/2005/01/27/sigh-cancel/</link>
	<description>Alan Levine's blog space for barking about instructional technology</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:38:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jay Allen</title>
		<link>http://cogdogblog.com/2005/01/27/sigh-cancel/comment-page-1/#comment-1123</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cogdogblog.com/2005/01/27/sigh-cancel-the-jubilation/#comment-1123</guid>
		<description>While there may be very little incremental monetary cost to spamming, there is both a cost in terms of bandwidth and time.



Spammers don't spam everything in sight.  There are literally thousands of entries on my site alone which have never been spammed.  Incredibly, there are still bloggers today writing "I must be really unpopular because I never get any spam".



There is clearly a resource limitation on their part.  I'm guessing that that is because there are less than a hundred of them (more likely, believe it or not, less than twenty) and millions of weblogs out there but it may be something else completely.  Whatever the cause, in light of this limitation, clearly efficiency is the key to success for the spammer.



Efficiency in this case equals placing their links on enough targets to see the largest increase in PageRank.



By placing nofollow on untrusted links (i.e. submitted by third parties), you very effectively sap the efficiency and results that spammer is looking for.  



No, they will probably not be looking for nofollow on your links before spamming -- at least not until they find that a whole week of spamming did absolutely nothing for them.  But even if they never scrape your page to find out, they WILL realize that their competitors have found greener pastures elsewhere (e.g. guestbooks, forum software, etc) and are beating them at the game.



nofollow costs the weblog spammer MONEY in terms of declining client contracts and THAT is how you stick it to the spammer.



And this business about nofollow hurting legitimate links?  Legitimate links -- links that deserve the PageRank Google created and continues to maintain -- will be so excellent that you will blog them (and hence give them PageRank).



No one deserves PageRank (as Google conceived of it) just because they posted a comment saying "I totally agree".  



nofollow will not only be effective in greatly reducing comment spam, but it will also make the cream of the content crop (the really great stuff people write and come up with) rise to the top because that content WILL be blogged and hence will not only continue to receive PageRank but more PR than without nofollow because your comment author links aren't sapping your virtual voting power.



It's unfortunate that some bloggers will be hurt, but bloggers who create great content will not be.  And isn't great and relevant content the stuff you want to see in your search results?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While there may be very little incremental monetary cost to spamming, there is both a cost in terms of bandwidth and time.</p>
<p>Spammers don&#8217;t spam everything in sight.  There are literally thousands of entries on my site alone which have never been spammed.  Incredibly, there are still bloggers today writing &#8220;I must be really unpopular because I never get any spam&#8221;.</p>
<p>There is clearly a resource limitation on their part.  I&#8217;m guessing that that is because there are less than a hundred of them (more likely, believe it or not, less than twenty) and millions of weblogs out there but it may be something else completely.  Whatever the cause, in light of this limitation, clearly efficiency is the key to success for the spammer.</p>
<p>Efficiency in this case equals placing their links on enough targets to see the largest increase in PageRank.</p>
<p>By placing nofollow on untrusted links (i.e. submitted by third parties), you very effectively sap the efficiency and results that spammer is looking for.  </p>
<p>No, they will probably not be looking for nofollow on your links before spamming &#8212; at least not until they find that a whole week of spamming did absolutely nothing for them.  But even if they never scrape your page to find out, they WILL realize that their competitors have found greener pastures elsewhere (e.g. guestbooks, forum software, etc) and are beating them at the game.</p>
<p>nofollow costs the weblog spammer MONEY in terms of declining client contracts and THAT is how you stick it to the spammer.</p>
<p>And this business about nofollow hurting legitimate links?  Legitimate links &#8212; links that deserve the PageRank Google created and continues to maintain &#8212; will be so excellent that you will blog them (and hence give them PageRank).</p>
<p>No one deserves PageRank (as Google conceived of it) just because they posted a comment saying &#8220;I totally agree&#8221;.  </p>
<p>nofollow will not only be effective in greatly reducing comment spam, but it will also make the cream of the content crop (the really great stuff people write and come up with) rise to the top because that content WILL be blogged and hence will not only continue to receive PageRank but more PR than without nofollow because your comment author links aren&#8217;t sapping your virtual voting power.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s unfortunate that some bloggers will be hurt, but bloggers who create great content will not be.  And isn&#8217;t great and relevant content the stuff you want to see in your search results?</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Allen</title>
		<link>http://cogdogblog.com/2005/01/27/sigh-cancel/comment-page-1/#comment-1124</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cogdogblog.com/2005/01/27/sigh-cancel-the-jubilation/#comment-1124</guid>
		<description>By the way, I will agree with you:  There is no magic bullet for spam.  There will still always be people trying to spam weblogs, either programmatically or by hand.



If we make it uneconomical for them, however, it will never again be the scourge that it is right now.



With the flow drastically reduced, our other tools will do just fine in keeping the remaining bits down to a manageable level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, I will agree with you:  There is no magic bullet for spam.  There will still always be people trying to spam weblogs, either programmatically or by hand.</p>
<p>If we make it uneconomical for them, however, it will never again be the scourge that it is right now.</p>
<p>With the flow drastically reduced, our other tools will do just fine in keeping the remaining bits down to a manageable level.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Levine</title>
		<link>http://cogdogblog.com/2005/01/27/sigh-cancel/comment-page-1/#comment-1125</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Levine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cogdogblog.com/2005/01/27/sigh-cancel-the-jubilation/#comment-1125</guid>
		<description>Thanks Jay-- I seem to waffle back and forth on nofollow as I read opinions of people I respect.  It certainly is not much effort to add nofollow, and I really do not see it as that much of a legit link detriment.



And even if it works, us small time operaters of independent sites end up with our pages blazened with "besti ality-pix.xxx" and 'texas-p oker.xxx' a MAJOR problem in education where people using the sites mayn not understand why their teacher's blogs has such links.



This we always need other tools like MT-Blacklist, for which I cannot thank you enough-- it is the shinest of beacons out there on the front.



Finally, I think we have a lot of unfounded speculation on how spammers really do their work. Have you ever communicated with one? Do we know how they go about their work? Do they really make money?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Jay&#8211; I seem to waffle back and forth on nofollow as I read opinions of people I respect.  It certainly is not much effort to add nofollow, and I really do not see it as that much of a legit link detriment.</p>
<p>And even if it works, us small time operaters of independent sites end up with our pages blazened with &#8220;besti ality-pix.xxx&#8221; and &#8216;texas-p oker.xxx&#8217; a MAJOR problem in education where people using the sites mayn not understand why their teacher&#8217;s blogs has such links.</p>
<p>This we always need other tools like MT-Blacklist, for which I cannot thank you enough&#8211; it is the shinest of beacons out there on the front.</p>
<p>Finally, I think we have a lot of unfounded speculation on how spammers really do their work. Have you ever communicated with one? Do we know how they go about their work? Do they really make money?</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://cogdogblog.com/2005/01/27/sigh-cancel/comment-page-1/#comment-1126</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cogdogblog.com/2005/01/27/sigh-cancel-the-jubilation/#comment-1126</guid>
		<description>Jay Allen writes, "While there may be very little incremental monetary cost to spamming, there is both a cost in terms of bandwidth and time."



I don't know about the spammers that you see, Jay, but the ones that are hitting MY site are using hundreds of zombie computers. I add about a dozen new IP addresses to my ban-list every day. For these spammers, bandwidth and time are nearly infinite resources, and completely free.



Trying to find out which sites use rel="nofollow" and which don't, now THAT is overhead for the spammers. Ain't gonna happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay Allen writes, &#8220;While there may be very little incremental monetary cost to spamming, there is both a cost in terms of bandwidth and time.&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know about the spammers that you see, Jay, but the ones that are hitting MY site are using hundreds of zombie computers. I add about a dozen new IP addresses to my ban-list every day. For these spammers, bandwidth and time are nearly infinite resources, and completely free.</p>
<p>Trying to find out which sites use rel=&#8221;nofollow&#8221; and which don&#8217;t, now THAT is overhead for the spammers. Ain&#8217;t gonna happen.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Levine</title>
		<link>http://cogdogblog.com/2005/01/27/sigh-cancel/comment-page-1/#comment-1127</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Levine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cogdogblog.com/2005/01/27/sigh-cancel-the-jubilation/#comment-1127</guid>
		<description>Doug, that was pretty much the soebring point of Ben Hammersley's post that I started off with:



&lt;a href="http://www.benhammersley.com/weblog/2005/01/20/let_no_fellow_nofollow_lest_we_all_lie_fallow.html"&gt;http://www.benhammersley.com/weblog/2005/01/20/let_no_fellow_nofollow_lest_we_all_lie_fallow.html&lt;/a&gt;



Spammers hit everything wide and fast. It's not like they will sit down and try and analyse why their Google Rank slipped 5%- and then research it down to say, "Hmmm, that Doug feller has nofollow, I think I will stop."



I once thought it was all about PageRank, but as Ben points out, its all about getting eyeballs to see a URL, as no matter how obvious it is that a drug enhancement link or a body part enlargement URL has no relevance to a small business that makes candles or a freshmen composition class,-- by human nature some small percentage will actually follow those links. And I bet it does not take much.



I have seen a web site that sells "company promotional" software that at the time claimed it included the URLs for more than 500 blogs. I believe spamming is a click and forget about it deal.



And still my point is- nofollow still leaves unsightly, unwanted, uninvited URLs in OUR content, and that is more disturbing (to me).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doug, that was pretty much the soebring point of Ben Hammersley&#8217;s post that I started off with:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.benhammersley.com/weblog/2005/01/20/let_no_fellow_nofollow_lest_we_all_lie_fallow.html">http://www.benhammersley.com/weblog/2005/01/20/let_no_fellow_nofollow_lest_we_all_lie_fallow.html</a></p>
<p>Spammers hit everything wide and fast. It&#8217;s not like they will sit down and try and analyse why their Google Rank slipped 5%- and then research it down to say, &#8220;Hmmm, that Doug feller has nofollow, I think I will stop.&#8221;</p>
<p>I once thought it was all about PageRank, but as Ben points out, its all about getting eyeballs to see a URL, as no matter how obvious it is that a drug enhancement link or a body part enlargement URL has no relevance to a small business that makes candles or a freshmen composition class,&#8211; by human nature some small percentage will actually follow those links. And I bet it does not take much.</p>
<p>I have seen a web site that sells &#8220;company promotional&#8221; software that at the time claimed it included the URLs for more than 500 blogs. I believe spamming is a click and forget about it deal.</p>
<p>And still my point is- nofollow still leaves unsightly, unwanted, uninvited URLs in OUR content, and that is more disturbing (to me).</p>
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		<title>By: JayAllen - The Daily Journey</title>
		<link>http://cogdogblog.com/2005/01/27/sigh-cancel/comment-page-1/#comment-1128</link>
		<dc:creator>JayAllen - The Daily Journey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cogdogblog.com/2005/01/27/sigh-cancel-the-jubilation/#comment-1128</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;nofollow: Once again, with feeling&lt;/strong&gt;

Alan Levine writes: Basically, spammers spam everything in sight, they will stick their URLs in any orifice, whether it triggers...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>nofollow: Once again, with feeling</strong></p>
<p>Alan Levine writes: Basically, spammers spam everything in sight, they will stick their URLs in any orifice, whether it triggers&#8230;</p>
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